Chipper Jones v. George Brett

Vercingetorix · 05-09-2008, 02:09 PM

On PTI yesterday, they were speculating about the chance Jones will hit .350 this year, and George Brett's name came up in passing, long enough for Wilbon to say something like, "[Jones] is obviously not as good a hitter as George Brett," to which Kornheiser agreed as though it was a given. I don't really care what the PTI guys think, obviously, but I'll play because it's it's an interesting question IMO. Why is "obvious" that Jones isn't as good a hitter?

Career numbers for Brett: .305 BA, .369 OBP, .487 SLG. Jones so far: .309 BA, .405 OBP, .549 SLG. Clearly Jones has played in a more offensively-minded era, but even if you normalize those numbers into OBP+ (on-base plus slugging, adjusted to league and park so that 100 is dead league average), Jones is still ahead (career 144 OPS+ vs 135 for Brett). Brett had 317 HR and 1595 RBI; Jones has 396 HRs and 1328 RBI despite over 3300 fewer at-bats so far. Jones is not likely to get 3000 hits like Brett did, but that's more due to the fact that he draws 30 more walks a year than anything else. Jones has been out of the lineup a lot in recent years, but Brett missed a lot of games too. Both won one MVP and one World Series ring. Brett's last good season came at 36, which is coincidentally the age Jones is now.

I'm not necessarily arguing that Jones is a greater player than Brett; I'm just interested in the difference between their reputations. By Brett's early 30s, he was already universally regarded as a first-ballot HOFer; Jones is 36 and people are just starting to talk about him as a HOF candidate. But when you look at the numbers, there isn't much difference. Why, then, is (and was) Brett so universally regarded as a greater hitter?

Answer: he hit .390 one year and he was a perennial antagonist for the Billy Martin/Reggie Jackson Yankees. That's it. Somebody persuade me I'm wrong.

Vercingetorix · 05-09-2008, 02:14 PM

I should add that even though I am a Braves fan, I have never been a particularly big fan of Jones himself. He's the perfect embodiment of everything north Florida is about, IMO. But it's been obvious for several years that he's a great -- and I do not use that term lightly -- player.

Numbers for Chipper here, and for Brett here.

**vols kick balls** · 05-09-2008, 06:40 PM

I'd have to say that Chipper is the better hitter based on the stats alone (to young so see Brett play). Anyone who can post a .954 OPS for a career is a HOFer IMO. Chipper hit for more power, slightly better average, and got on base more.

JTrainDavis · 05-09-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Career numbers for Brett: .305 BA, .369 OBP, .487 SLG. Jones so far: .309 BA, .405 OBP, .549 SLG. Clearly Jones has played in a more offensively-minded era, but even if you normalize those numbers into OBP+ (on-base plus slugging, adjusted to league and park so that 100 is dead league average), .

Verc, you play SimLeague Baseball don't you.

I honestly never thought of Chipper as a Hall of Famer, perhaps because i rarely see him, playing in Atlanta and in the NL, so i rarely see him play, as i avoid ESPN like the plague.

If i were a voter, I'd say Yea. And i am very against alot of recent HOF inductees, Stat Compilers such as Sutter, Eddie Murray, and alot of the "Longevity Gang" Due to the advanced training and medical methods, as well as the whole 'juice' issue, lots of 3,000 hit or 500 HR guys are crap in my book. Chipper has been a gamer.

Funny, i guess i hit baseball adulthood early, its hard to believe its been almost 20 years since Glavine, Avery, Smoltz, Pendleton, Justice, Bream, and company started that whole Bravos run

Vercingetorix · 05-09-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vols kick balls

I'd have to say that Chipper is the better hitter based on the stats alone (to young so see Brett play). Anyone who can post a .954 OPS for a career is a HOFer IMO. Chipper hit for more power, slightly better average, and got on base more.

It occurred to me shortly after I typed up this post that what seemed like a really interesting question to me is probably going to strike many of our VN regulars as a post comparing a current player to somebody like Roberto Clemente or Juan Marichal -- great players, certainly, but just a stat line in the record book. Oops.

I'm old enough (37) to remember Brett in his prime, which is why it's an interesting comparison (to me). Brett was regarded as an almost larger-than-life figure in the early-to-mid 80s, but yet here comes poor dumb Hooters-chasing north Floridian Chipper Jones a couple of decades later and he's had at least as good of a career.

Vercingetorix · 05-09-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTrainDavis

Verc, you play SimLeague Baseball don't you.

I do not know what SimLeague Baseball is. I'd guess something like Strat-O-Matic, but updated? I don't play fantasy sports, etc. I just read a lot of Bill James early enough to be convinced that a lot of the "new" stats are useful for evaluating what's going on, OPS in particular. I'm not sure that it's a coincidence that the Red Sox have won two World Series since they hired James in 2003.

Quote:

Funny, i guess i hit baseball adulthood early, its hard to believe its been almost 20 years since Glavine, Avery, Smoltz, Pendleton, Justice, Bream, and company started that whole Bravos run

Believe me, I can't believe it's been that long either. And I've been on the Braves bandwagon since Pascual Perez was arguably the staff ace.

**GAVol** · 05-09-2008, 10:26 PM

I lost all respect for Brett when he kept getting DL'd for hemorrhoids.

volfanbill · 05-09-2008, 10:27 PM

well... i hate Larry and my very first pair of Tball cleats had G. Brett's name on them so I can't make an unbiased decision on this. I take Brett, but I can't imagine Larry not being a HOFer.

**GAVol** · 05-09-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Believe me, I can't believe it's been that long either. And I've been on the Braves bandwagon since Pascual Perez was arguably the staff ace.

I was actually at the "I-285" game where they had to scratch Perez got lost and kept circling the perimeter looking for the stadium.

Vercingetorix · 05-09-2008, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volfanbill

well... i hate Larry and my very first pair of Tball cleats had G. Brett's name on them so I can't make an unbiased decision on this. I take Brett, but I can't imagine Larry not being a HOFer.

I'm not as interested in the actual Larry-vs-Brett comparison as much as I am the gigantic gulf between their reputations. I don't know how old you are, but by the time the Royals won the title in 85 (when Brett was only 32), everybody knew he was a first-ballot Hall of Famer. His reputation was cemented during the late 70s when he was battling Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson. That reputation persists, considering that Wilbon just yesterday talked about how Jones was "obviously not as good" a hitter as Brett. In contrast, most of us (me included) just sort of turned around a few years ago and suddenly realized that Larry Wayne Jones Junior, professional screwup and Hooters waitress chaser, was clearly having a Hall of Fame career. And when you look at the numbers, maybe even better than the immortal George Brett.

Fame is a strange thing. I'm tempted to argue that you could tell all you need to know about the difference between the Yankees and the Mets just by comparing the reputations of Yankees antagonist Brett and Mets antagonist Jones, but I'd have to think that out a little more.

Vercingetorix · 05-10-2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GAVol

I lost all respect for Brett when he kept getting DL'd for hemorrhoids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GAVol

I was actually at the "I-285" game where they had to scratch Perez got lost and kept circling the perimeter looking for the stadium.

Dude, you're old.

(To this day I cannot hear the word "hemorrhoid" without thinking on some level about George Brett. The first time I heard the word was because of him. I had to get my dad to explain, and even then, I was like, "so why does that mean he can't hit??")

The Dude · 05-10-2008, 09:18 AM

How is Jones a professional screwup?

Vercingetorix · 05-12-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dude

How is Jones a professional screwup?

I was thinking more about off-the-field stuff, stuff he says in the papers, etc. He's just a good old boy from that cultural Mecca, south Georgia/north Florida, and it shows.

He is, however, a great baseball player.

BigPapaVol · 05-12-2008, 11:10 AM

I think Chipper's reputation is weighed upon heavily by his postseason no-shows. When David Justice is your squad's clutch hitter, there's a problem.

I don't particularly care for Jones, but he is arguably the best switch hitter ever and has done it without a lot of protection in the lineup. I don't think there is going to be a lot of debate about his HOF candidacy.

TennNC · 05-12-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigPapaVol

I think Chipper's reputation is weighed upon heavily by his postseason no-shows. When David Justice is your squad's clutch hitter, there's a problem.

I don't particularly care for Jones, but 1)he is arguably the best switch hitter ever and has done it without a lot of protection in the lineup. 2)I don't think there is going to be a lot of debate about his HOF candidacy.

1) Disagree. Mantle, E. Murray and Rose, then perhaps Chipper.

2) Agreed. He's a lock. And he's just as good a hitter as Brett (in fact, it's a great comparison IMO).