Barnhart: Vols on right track says Dooley

#276
#276
emainvol said:
It was ****. Saban inherited ****. Some dude said Saban's situation wasn't even close to as bad. Dude was wrong.
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Oh, and I would tend to also consider Mich St's strength of schedule in the equation. I may be talking out of my blow hole since I haven't compared, but I can't imagine any stretch resembling UT's last year. Then, figure in the injuries on an already thin roster... And the mental toll that the bad breaks had on a young team with no senior leadership...

I give CDD a pass for last year and look hopefully to this year. If he craps his pants now... Bring in someone else to take the roster and run.
 
#277
#277
Orange_Crush said:
Cool. Then if we can agree that CDD inherited that steaming pile, it may be a small step to an agreement that the jury's still out on him. I hope he shows up and impresses. If he doesn't this year, I say bring in the jury and the hooded ax man.

:good!:
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I can deal with those that don't think we can make the call that he sucks yet, at least those that are rational, although I personally think he is a squirrel turd on the Saban coaching tree.
 
#278
#278
emainvol said:
I can deal with those that don't think we can make the call that he sucks yet, at least those that are rational, although I personally think he is a squirrel turd on the Saban coaching tree.
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You know... I'm turning over a new leaf. I can agree to disagree with you on that point. lol

:hi:
 
#279
#279
emainvol said:
I can deal with those that don't think we can make the call that he sucks yet, at least those that are rational, although I personally think he is a squirrel turd on the Saban coaching tree.
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I'm in the group that needs until October to make the call. But I still think you are underplaying how bad things were in 2010. It was worse than probation IMO.
 
#280
#280
GAVol said:
I'm in the group that needs until October to make the call. But I still think you are underplaying how bad things were in 2010. It was worse than probation IMO.
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Some have hammered to the point they might as well put the nail in sideways.
 
#281
#281
GAVol said:
I'm in the group that needs until October to make the call. But I still think you are underplaying how bad things were in 2010. It was worse than probation IMO.
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Maybe it was, but I don't think anyone can make a reasonable argument that what Saban was handed "wasn't even close"
 
#282
#282
emainvol said:
Maybe it was, but I don't think anyone can make a reasonable argument that what Saban was handed "wasn't even close"
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Not familiar enough with the situation to really say, but... Even with the penalties, I can't imagine his roster being almost totally devoid of junior/senior leadership. I can't imagine his schedule being as tough. I can't imagine him losing two of his only three offensive weapons to injury.

It may have been close to CDD's situation, but sheesh! I absolutely hope CDD proves himself and finds success, because the poor guy has weathered the perfect storm, imho.
 
#283
#283
Orange_Crush said:
Not familiar enough with the situation to really say, but... Even with the penalties, I can't imagine his roster being almost totally devoid of junior/senior leadership. I can't imagine his schedule being as tough. I can't imagine him losing two of his only three offensive weapons to injury.

It may have been close to CDD's situation, but sheesh! I absolutely hope CDD proves himself and finds success, because the poor guy has weathered the perfect storm, imho.
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I guarantee you the schedule was tough. We are talking mid-90s Big Ten. That conference was awfully good then.
 
#284
#284
emainvol said:
Maybe it was, but I don't think anyone can make a reasonable argument that what Saban was handed "wasn't even close"
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I think "no comparison" is going a bit far, but I wouldn't say Saban had it as bad as Dooley.

There were no Bowl or Television restrictions.

The scholarship restrictions started in '97. Saban was hired in '95.

Saban left in '99 before the scholarship reductions would have had a tremendous impact.

He knew the investigation was going on for 2 seasons, so I would imagine he was able to redshirt players to compensate, although I haven't looked to see if this was the case.

Bobby Williams' first year is when the restricted classes would have been Jrs and Srs, which is what Dooley walked into. Williams went 5-6.

*Edit: Saban was stripped of 7 scholarships in '97, those players would have been juniors in '99 when he went 10-2 and went to the citrus bowl.

MSU Sanctions
 
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#285
#285
RockyTop85 said:
I think "no comparison" is going a bit far, but I wouldn't say Saban had it as bad as Dooley.

There were no Bowl or Television restrictions.

The scholarship restrictions started in '97. Saban was hired in '95.

Saban left in '99 before the scholarship reductions would have had a tremendous impact.

He knew the investigation was going on for 2 seasons, so I would imagine he was able to redshirt players to compensate, although I haven't looked to see if this was the case.

Bobby Williams' first year is when the restricted classes would have been Jrs and Srs, which is what Dooley walked into. Williams went 5-6.

*Edit: Saban was stripped of 7 scholarships in '97, those players would have been juniors in '99 when he went 10-2 and went to the citrus bowl.

MSU Sanctions
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Fair enough. But, it's just like people claimed when they were investigating around here, it's harder to recruit when you have that cloud hanging over you.
 
#286
#286
emainvol said:
Fair enough. But, it's just like people claimed when they were investigating around here, it's harder to recruit when you have that cloud hanging over you.
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I would agree with that.

I think the two situations are fairly comparable.

1999 appears to be when Saban sold his soul. That's a very impressive season if you look at the context and some of the teams they beat. Their schedule was tough that year.
 
#288
#288
In 1995, Saban lost to:

Nebraska - 12-0-0
(Tied) Perdue - 4-6-1
Iowa - 8-4-0
Wisconsin - 4-5-2
Penn St - 9-3-0
LSU - 7-4-1 -- 26-45 blowout


1996:

Nebraska - 11-2-0
Louisville - 5-6-0
Iowa - 9-3-0
Michigan - 8-4-0
Penn St - 11-2-0
Stanford - 7-5-0 -- 38-0 blowout


1997:

Northwestern - 5-7-0
Michigan - 12-0-0
Ohio St - 10-3-0
Purdue - 9-3-0
(Bowl) Washington 8-4-0 -- 23-51 blowout

In his first three seasons in his first rebuild, Saban went 19-16-1 with embarrassing losses to weak opponents, with a program that was admittedly not (quite?) as bad off as the UT team that CDD inherited.

Using the example of perhaps the best coach in college football, can we agree that it takes time to turn a program around, and we should expect some embarrassing losses? I mean, obviously Michigan St's first three years with Saban weren't an indication that he is a loser. Maybe the results were more attributed to the circumstances that they were produced in?
 
#289
#289
Orange_Crush said:
In 1995, Saban lost to:

Nebraska - 12-0-0
(Tied) Perdue - 4-6-1
Iowa - 8-4-0
Wisconsin - 4-5-2
Penn St - 9-3-0
LSU - 7-4-1 -- 26-45 blowout


1996:

Nebraska - 11-2-0
Louisville - 5-6-0
Iowa - 9-3-0
Michigan - 8-4-0
Penn St - 11-2-0
Stanford - 7-5-0 -- 38-0 blowout


1997:

Northwestern - 5-7-0
Michigan - 12-0-0
Ohio St - 10-3-0
Purdue - 9-3-0
(Bowl) Washington 8-4-0 -- 23-51 blowout

In his first three seasons in his first rebuild, Saban went 19-16-1 with embarrassing losses to weak opponents, with a program that was admittedly not (quite?) as bad off as the UT team that CDD inherited.

Using the example of perhaps the best coach in college football, can we agree that it takes time to turn a program around, and we should expect some embarrassing losses? I mean, obviously Michigan St's first three years with Saban weren't an indication that he is a loser. Maybe the results were more attributed to the circumstances that they were produced in?
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Then imagine what 1996 would have looked like if they had lost QB, Bill Burke and future NFL WR Derrick Mason (SR). Then imagine that almost everyone else left on that team had no senior leadership. I wonder how CNS's 1996 season would have looked. You think he would have been worse than the 6-6 he eeked out?
 
#290
#290
Imagine if Saban took over at Tennessee instead of Dooley. Do you think that he would miss a bowl game in year 2?
 
#291
#291
tvolsfan said:
Imagine if Saban took over at Tennessee instead of Dooley. Do you think that he would miss a bowl game in year 2?
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From the looks of the results from the first 3 years he was at MSU, it is not out of the question-- especially considering that his second year at MSU (6-6) did not lose his QB and future-NFL WR, and his roster was arguably not as bare as UT's last year.
 
#292
#292
emainvol said:
Also, as for the Saban comparisons, I missed the part where Dooley inherited a program coming off of an academic scandal and on self-imposed and NCAA sanctions.
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First, the saban comarisons are for those that think they know the future about a coach based off a few early years as HC. Same clowns would have been in Michigan trying to run him off.
Second, it doesn't matter what you call probation. The attrition UT had doesn't compare to what saban came into. We had 3 srs last year that played. Did bama go 2-3 years in a row with 2 or 3 draft picks total? Wake up.
Last, look at teams coming off probation and you'll find little or no adverse effect after year 1.
 
#293
#293
tvolsfan said:
Imagine if Saban took over at Tennessee instead of Dooley. Do you think that he would miss a bowl game in year 2?
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1996 MSU wins

Purdue - 3-8
Eastern Michigan - 3-8
Illinois - 2-9
Minnesota - 4-7
Wisconsin - 8-5
Indiana - 3-8

1996 Losses:

Nebraska - 11-2-0
Louisville - 5-6-0
Iowa - 9-3-0
Michigan - 8-4-0
Penn St - 11-2-0


He played 5 teams with winning records in 1996 and lost to 4 of them. The only teams he won against were a combined 23-45. Replace a couple of those teams with decent competition, and you don't see him missing a bowl game his second year at MSU?
 
#295
#295
tvolsfan said:
Imagine if Saban took over at Tennessee instead of Dooley. Do you think that he would miss a bowl game in year 2?
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If Saban took over in 2010 at Tennessee after going 14-0 in 2009.....what was the question?
 
#296
#296
Posting Saban's W/L records his first three years at MSU. My previous posts only took into account for losses.

In 1995, Saban lost to:

Nebraska - 12-0-0
(Tied) Perdue - 4-6-1
Iowa - 8-4-0
Wisconsin - 4-5-2
Penn St - 9-3-0
LSU - 7-4-1 -- 26-45 blowout

wins:

Louisville - 7-4-0
BC - 4-8-0 (25-21 squeaker)
Illinois - 5-5-1
Minnesota - 3-8-0
Michigan - 9-4-0
Indiana - 2-9-0

Saban played 6 teams with a winning record, and lost to 4 of them.

The teams he beat were a combined: 30-38

______________________________

1996:

Nebraska - 11-2-0
Louisville - 5-6-0
Iowa - 9-3-0
Michigan - 8-4-0
Penn St - 11-2-0
Stanford - 7-5-0 -- 38-0 blowout

Wins:

Purdue - 3-8
Eastern Michigan - 3-8
Illinois - 2-9
Minnesota - 4-7
Wisconsin - 8-5
Indiana - 3-8

Of the six teams that he played who had winning records, he beat one of them.

The teams he beat were a combined: 23-45
__________________________________

1997:

Northwestern - 5-7-0
Michigan - 12-0-0
Ohio St - 10-3-0
Purdue - 9-3-0
(Bowl) Washington 8-4-0 -- 23-51 blowout

wins -

W Mich - 8-3-0
Memphis - 4-7-0
ND - 7-6
Minnesota - 3-9-0
Indiana - 2-9-0
Illinois - 0-11-0
Penn St - 9-3-0

Of the six teams that he played with winning records, he beat three of them.

The teams he beat were a combined: 33-48

So, Nick Saban should have been fired after year 3 at MSU? This proved that he sucks as a coach? It was indicative of a career that was over before it began?
 
#297
#297
tvolsfan said:
Imagine if Saban took over at Tennessee instead of Dooley. Do you think that he would miss a bowl game in year 2?
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Relative to the competition his teams have played against... Saban has NEVER coached a team as deficient in depth, experience, and talent as UT's last two.

The answer to your rhetorical question is that we have absolutely no idea what Saban would have done since there is nothing in his career to compare to. The closest would be his brief stint in the NFL where he went 6-10 with a slightly undermanned Miami team. But any NFL to college comparison for a coach is flawed.
 
#298
#298
Spartacavolus said:
First, the saban comarisons are for those that think they know the future about a coach based off a few early years as HC. Same clowns would have been in Michigan trying to run him off.
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Saban was on a very hot seat until his last season at MSU. He got out of town before he had another mediocre year.

Second, it doesn't matter what you call probation. The attrition UT had doesn't compare to what saban came into. We had 3 srs last year that played. Did bama go 2-3 years in a row with 2 or 3 draft picks total? Wake up.
Last, look at teams coming off probation and you'll find little or no adverse effect after year 1.
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Bama's probation did much less harm to their roster than the busts of Fulmer's last two classes and Kiffin's only class. Also, oversigning was allowed when Saban was rebuilding that Bama roster.
 
#299
#299
sjt18 said:
Relative to the competition his teams have played against... Saban has NEVER coached a team as deficient in depth, experience, and talent as UT's last two.

The answer to your rhetorical question is that we have absolutely no idea what Saban would have done since there is nothing in his career to compare to. The closest would be his brief stint in the NFL where he went 6-10 with a slightly undermanned Miami team. But any NFL to college comparison for a coach is flawed.
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While technically, I agree with you, sjt, that we really will never know what Saban would have done... After a dissection of his performances at MSU, against the competition MSU played, I am fairly convinced that CNS would have missed a bowl last year, having fielded the same team that CDD did, against the same competition that CDD faced, and facing the same injuries CDD faced.

He barely made a bowl his second year at MSU, playing a schedule that faced as many losing teams as winning.

CNS is a great coach. He is made to look like a coaching 'god' by the talent he coaches.
 
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