Pope: There Is No Hell

#877
#877
tenor.gif
 
#881
#881
The KJV declares that the scriptures will be preserved. So deny that if you will, but it plainly teaches it. I simply believe that God preserved them in the KJV. Many people believe as I do, it's not that uncommon.
 
#882
#882
Do you realize how silly you all sound for mocking someone who simply believes that we have a copy of the word of God and some of you call yourselves believers?
 
#883
#883
LouderVol said:
ok :dunno:

I was making my own joke too.
Click to expand...

Orangeslice13 said:
Actually......

I think Louder was being funny and taking a shot at him for saying the KJV claims to be the only True bible
Click to expand...

We were making the same joke about the KJV. I misread his joke to talk about non-believers instead of KJV.

Obviously, the only head it went over was my own. My apologies. :hi:
 
#885
#885
BigO95 said:
Do you realize how silly you all sound for mocking someone who simply believes that we have a copy of the word of God and some of you call yourselves believers?
Click to expand...

Do you realize how silly you sound for mocking indignantly, both Christians and non-believers, who are simply cognizant of the fact that we have a copy of a book which was translated hundreds of years ago, by a group of fallible humans who had an agenda and you call yourselve an agent for infallible will of God?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 people
#895
#895
BigO95 said:
Do you realize how silly you all sound for mocking someone who simply believes that we have a copy of the word of God and some of you call yourselves believers?
Click to expand...

Do you realize how silly you sound for mocking everyone who simply believes that using the KJV to support the KJV is more than a little disingenuous.

ok, now getting about as serious as I ever get.

the way I have always looked at it is this: My faith is my faith, it stands on its own, but it has all types of support, the trinity, the bible, the Church, family, etc etc. My faith and belief in God would not be rocked if there was something wrong in the bible, it hasn't been shook by all the crap the Church pulls, it hasn't been shook by all the crap in the world.

I have some doubts you could survive a serious blow to the KJV, and a faith so shallow raises questions to me. Don't take shallow as a slight there, just not sure what other word to use. you also come across as really defensive, which usually means one is worried about something, and that something is the KJV. you seem to keep it on such a pedestal that you refuse to admit the possibility there could be any blemish on it. and why can't it have a blemish, because it tells you so. its circular logic. I would want my faith a little more grounded than "because I told you so".

jmo
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#896
#896
LouderVol said:
Do you realize how silly you sound for mocking everyone who simply believes that using the KJV to support the KJV is more than a little disingenuous.

...
Click to expand...

The KJV does not say that it is the preservation of the literal, infallible Word of God. As a matter of fact, its translators, in its preface, stated just the opposite.

And the original languages which the KJV are based from, do not say that the KJV would be the preservation of the literal, infallible Word of God. They merely say that His Word will be preserved/stand. And it is, in the thousands of manuscripts that have been preserved throughout history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#897
#897
Orange_Crush said:
The KJV does not say that it is the preservation of the literal, infallible Word of God. As a matter of fact, its translators, in its preface, stated just the opposite.

And the original languages which the KJV are based from, do not say that the KJV would be the preservation of the literal, infallible Word of God. They merely say that His Word will be preserved/stand. And it is, in the thousands of manuscripts that have been preserved throughout history.
Click to expand...

baby steps with BigO
 
#898
#898
Orange_Crush said:
The KJV does not say that it is the preservation of the literal, infallible Word of God. As a matter of fact, its translators, in its preface, stated just the opposite.

And the original languages which the KJV are based from, do not say that the KJV would be the preservation of the literal, infallible Word of God. They merely say that His Word will be preserved/stand. And it is, in the thousands of manuscripts that have been preserved throughout history.
Click to expand...

O_C,

If you have a moment, post the translators' statement regarding this (not the entire preface, but an excerpt -- you may have posted it earlier, but I can't find that).

Thanks.
 
#899
#899
UT-Rex said:
O_C,

If you have a moment, post the translators' statement regarding this (not the entire preface, but an excerpt -- you may have posted it earlier, but I can't find that).

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Quoting the contextual surroundings for completeness.

The Praise of the Holy Scriptures
But now what piety without truth? what truth (what saving truth) without the word of God? What word of God (whereof we may be sure) without the Scripture? The Scriptures we are commanded to search. John 5:39. Isa 8:20. They are commended that searched and studied them. Acts 17:11 and 8:28,29. They are reproved that were unskilful in them, or slow to believe them. Matt 22:29. Luke 24:25. They can make us wise unto salvation. 2 Tim 3:15. If we be ignorant, they will instruct us; if out of the way, they will bring us home; if out of order, they will reform us; if in heaviness, comfort us; if dull, quicken us; if cold, inflame us. Tolle, lege; Tolle, lege, Take up and read, take up and read the Scriptures, (for unto them was the direction) it was said unto S. Augustine by a supernatural voice. Whatsoever is in the Scriptures, believe me, saith the same S. Augustine, is high and divine; there is verily truth, and a doctrine most fit for the refreshing and renewing of men's minds, and truly so tempered, that everyone may draw from thence that which is sufficient for him, if he come to draw with a devout and pious mind, as true Religion requireth. Thus S. Augustine. And S. Jerome: Ama scripturas, et amabit te sapientia, etc. Love the Scriptures, and wisdom will love thee. And S. Cyril against Julian; Even boys that are bred up in the Scriptures, become most religious, etc. But what mention we three or four uses of the Scripture, whereas whatsoever is to be believed or practiced, or hoped for, is contained in them? or three or four sentences of the Fathers, since whosoever is worthy the name of a Father, from Christ's time downward, hath likewise written not only of the riches, but also of the perfection of the Scripture? I adore the fulness of the Scripture, saith Tertullian against Hermogenes. And again, to Apelles an heretic of the like stamp, he saith; I do not admit that which thou bringest in (or concludest) of thine own (head or store, de tuo) without Scripture. So Saint Justin Martyr before him; We must know by all means, saith he, that it is not lawful (or possible) to learn (anything) of God or of right piety, save only out of the Prophets, who teach us by divine inspiration. So Saint Basil after Tertullian, It is a manifest falling way from the Faith, and a fault of presumption, either to reject any of those things that are written, or to bring in (upon the head of them, epeisagein) any of those things that are not written. We omit to cite to the same effect, S. Cyril B. of Jerusalem in his fouth Cataches., Saint Jerome against Helvidius, Saint Augustine in his third book against the letters of Petilian, and in very many other places of his works. Also we forebear to descend to later Fathers, because we will not weary the reader. The Scriptures then being acknowledged to be so full and so perfect, how can we excuse ourselves of negligence, if we do not study them, of curiosity, if we be not content with them? Men talk much of eiresiwnh, how many sweet and goodly things it had hanging on it; of the Philosopher's stone, that it turneth copper into gold; of Cornucopia, that it had all things necessary for food in it, of Panaces the herb, that it was good for all diseases; of Catholicon the drug, that it is instead of all purges; of Vulcan's armor, that it was an armor of proof against all thrusts, and all blows, etc. Well, that which they falsely or vainly attributed to these things for bodily good, we may justly and with full measure ascribe unto the Scripture, for spiritual. It is not only an armor, but also a whole armory of weapons, both offensive and defensive; whereby we may save ourselves and put the enemy to flight. It is not an herb, but a tree, or rather a whole paradise of trees of life, which bring forth fruit every month, and the fruit thereof is for meat, and the leaves for medicine. It is not a pot of Manna, or a cruse of oil, which were for memory only, or for a meal's meat or two, but as it were a shower of heavenly bread sufficient for a whole host, be it never so great; and as it were a whole cellar full of oil vessels; whereby all our necessities may be provided for, and our debts discharged. In a word, it is a Panary of wholesome food, against fenowed traditions; a Physician's shop (Saint Basil calleth it) of preservatives against poisoned heresies; a Pandect of profitable laws, against rebellious spirits; a treasury of most costly jewels, against beggarly rudiments; finally a fountain of most pure water springing up unto everlasting life. And what marvel? The original thereof being from heaven, not from earth; the author being God, not man; the inditer, the holy spirit, not the wit of the Apostles or Prophets; the Penmen such as were sanctified from the womb, and endued with a principal portion of God's spirit; the matter, verity, piety, purity, uprightness; the form, God's word, God's testimony, God's oracles, the word of truth, the word of salvation, etc.; the effects, light of understanding, stableness of persuasion, repentance from dead works, newness of life, holiness, peace, joy in the holy Ghost; lastly, the end and reward of the study thereof, fellowship with the Saints, participation of the heavenly nature, fruition of an inheritance immortal, undefiled, and that never shall fade away: Happy is the man that delighteth in the Scripture, and thrice happy that meditateth in it day and night.


Translation Necessary

But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknown tongue? as it is written, Except I know the power of the voice, I shall be to him that speaketh, a Barbarian, and he that speaketh, shall be a Barbarian to me. [1 Cor 14] The Apostle excepteth no tongue; not Hebrew the ancientest, not Greek the most copious, not Latin the finest. Nature taught a natural man to confess, that all of us in those tongues which we do not understand, are plainly deaf; we may turn the deaf ear unto them. The Scythian counted the Athenian, whom he did not understand, barbarous; so the Roman did the Syrian, and the Jew (even S. Jerome himself calleth the Hebrew tongue barbarous, belike because it was strange to so many) so the Emperor of Constantinople calleth the Latin tongue, barbarous, though Pope Nicolas do storm at it: so the Jews long before Christ called all other nations, Lognazim, which is little better than barbarous. Therefore as one complaineth, that always in the Senate of Rome, there was one or other that called for an interpreter: so lest the Church be driven to the like exigent, it is necessary to have translations in a readiness. Translation it is that openeth the window, to let in the light; that breaketh the shell, that we may eat the kernel; that putteth aside the curtain, that we may look into the most Holy place; that removeth the cover of the well, that we may come by the water, even as Jacob rolled away the stone from the mouth of the well, by which means the flocks of Laban were watered [Gen 29:10]. Indeed without translation into the vulgar tongue, the unlearned are but like children at Jacob's well (which was deep) [John 4:11] without a bucket or something to draw with; or as that person mentioned by Isaiah, to whom when a sealed book was delivered, with this motion, Read this, I pray thee, he was fain to make this answer, I cannot, for it is sealed. [Isa 29:11]
Click to expand...

In a long section defending the translation of the original languages, they specifically called out the originals as the divinely inspired and perfect Word of God. They took great pain to distinguish between the original autographs and their faithful translation when attributing to the actual "God-breathed" perfection of inspiration.

This will become more explicit and important in later sections.

In defending their translation from accusers (as well as all translations, by the way), they wrote this:

Now to the latter we answer; that we do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession, (for we have seen none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the King's speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere. For it is confessed, that things are to take their denomination of the greater part; and a natural man could say, Verum ubi multa nitent in carmine, non ego paucis offendor maculis, etc. A man may be counted a virtuous man, though he have made many slips in his life, (else, there were none virtuous, for in many things we offend all) [James 3:2] also a comely man and lovely, though he have some warts upon his hand, yea, not only freckles upon his face, but also scars. No cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting forth of it. For what ever was perfect under the Sun, where Apostles or Apostolic men, that is, men endued with an extraordinary measure of God's spirit, and privileged with the privilege of infallibility, had not their hand? The Romanists therefore in refusing to hear, and daring to burn the Word translated, did no less than despite the spirit of grace, from whom originally it proceeded, and whose sense and meaning, as well as man's weakness would enable, it did express.
Click to expand...

This is a troubling quote from the translators for the KJV-onlyists. They call any English translation that isn't the KJV Satan's handiwork and explicitly NOT the Word of God, yet the translators lauded any genuine attempt of the scriptures to the common tongue for the benefit of the authentic seeker.

And the KJV-onlyists claim that the KJV is the divinely inspired and transferred word of God. Yet, the translators of the very Bible they laud as such said that the "originals" are the divinely inspired and perfect Word of God. They went on in this most recent statement to say that we shoold call translations the Word of God, but only as a good and useful representation. They explicitly said that the translation will have "warts" and "imperfections", but should still be studies as God's Word in general content.

This is an explicit and deadly refutation to the KJV-only argument, by the very people that produced the KJV! Not only did they laud other English translations (such as the ESV, HCSB, NIV, NLT?), but they also established that they did not operate under divine inspiration to produce the explicit and "literal/perfect" Word of God, but instead were a group of scholars that studied the original languages to produce a useful, but imperfect, representation to the common man.

And then...

Some peradventure would have no variety of senses to be set in the margin, lest the authority of the Scriptures for deciding of controversies by that show of uncertainty, should somewhat be shaken. But we hold their judgment not to be so sound in this point. For though, whatsoever things are necessary are manifest, as S. Chrysostom saith, and as S. Augustine, In those things that are plainly set down in the Scriptures, all such matters are found that concern Faith, Hope, and Charity. Yet for all that it cannot be dissembled, that partly to exercise and whet our wits, partly to wean the curious from loathing of them for their every-where plainness, partly also to stir up our devotion to crave the assistance of God's spirit by prayer, and lastly, that we might be forward to seek aid of our brethren by conference, and never scorn those that be not in all respects so complete as they should be, being to seek in many things ourselves, it hath pleased God in his divine providence, here and there to scatter words and sentences of that difficulty and doubtfulness, not in doctrinal points that concern salvation, (for in such it hath been vouched that the Scriptures are plain) but in matters of less moment, that fearfulness would better beseem us than confidence, and if we will resolve, to resolve upon modesty with S. Augustine, (though not in this same case altogether, yet upon the same ground) Melius est dubitare de occultis, quam litigare de incertis, it is better to make doubt of those things which are secret, than to strive about those things that are uncertain. There be many words in the Scriptures, which be never found there but once, (having neither brother nor neighbor, as the Hebrews speak) so that we cannot be holpen by conference of places. Again, there be many rare names of certain birds, beasts and precious stones, etc. concerning which the Hebrews themselves are so divided among themselves for judgment, that they may seem to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, than because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Jerome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margin do well to admonish the Reader to seek further, and not to conclude or dogmatize upon this or that peremptorily? For as it is a fault of incredulity, to doubt of those things that are evident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (even in the judgment of the judicious) questionable, can be no less than presumption. Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is no so clear, must needs do good, yea, is necessary, as we are persuaded. We know that Sixtus Quintus expressly forbiddeth, that any variety of readings of their vulgar edition, should be put in the margin, (which though it be not altogether the same thing to that we have in hand, yet it looketh that way) but we think he hath not all of his own side his favorers, for this conceit. They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other. If they were sure that their high Priest had all laws shut up in his breast, as Paul the Second bragged, and that he were as free from error by special privilege, as the Dictators of Rome were made by law inviolable, it were another matter; then his word were an Oracle, his opinion a decision. But the eyes of the world are now open, God be thanked, and have been a great while, they find that he is subject to the same affections and infirmities that others be, that his skin is penetrable, and therefore so much as he proveth, not as much as he claimeth, they grant and embrace.
Click to expand...

Defending their margin notes, they basically said, "Hey! We did the best we could, there's lots there we weren't sure about so we put possibilities in the margins, but don't worry so much about it because none of the uncertainties bring doubt to major doctrines.



I find it interesting, as well as entertaining, that I make the same arguments that the KJV translators made, and Big questions my salvation while accusing me of denying scripture. I affirm the originals fro whence we received all translations as the perfect and inspired Word of God, the authority in my life. I also affirm an appreciation for most English translations of the originals and promote their acceptance as useful and profitable representations of God's Word and intent, though each will have warts and imperfections, being the genuinely honest pursuits of devoted men and women.

:hi:

The Translators to the Reader
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top